Participatory democracy for Venezuela

Last April, a failed military coup took place in Venezuela. The news 
coverage was confusing. First there was a coup and, then, Venezuela's 
president, Hugo Chavez, was back in power. Judy Rebick discusses what 
really happened in this interview with Marta Harnecker who had previously 
interviewed Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez. It provides a great insight 
into the real balance of forces in Venezuela and the strategy and tactics 
of the Chavista's.

Rebick: So what happened during the coup, according to Chavez?

Harnecker: It is important to understand that this coup was 
overturned by a popular uprising. First we need a little context. The 
traditional rightwing parties had been marginalised in the political 
process during Chavez's presidency. So the interests of these parties were 
represented directly by big business, and it was the interests of these 
corporations that were represented by the generals who led the coup.

Also, it's important to understand that there is a popular army in 
Venezuela. You can go from being a peasant to being a general. This is not 
the case in many other Latin American countries. Chavez himself rose from a 
poor background. Of course, unlike Chavez, a great number of generals who 
come from poor backgrounds get co-opted by the ruling class.

Although the grassroots of the army and the junior officers are Chavez 
supporters, many generals are against him. When the leaders of the coup 
went to the U.S. to discuss the situation and told the U.S. government that 
they wanted Chavez out, they were very well received. This encouraged them. 
We could see from the U.S. reaction after the coup that the US supported 
it.

Chavez had a plan in place in case of a coup, which they were expecting. 
The problem was that the plan involved one of the generals who Chavez 
mistakenly thought was loyal. So when Chavez decided to activate the plan, 
he couldn't. The original plan was to defend the Miraflores Palace [the 
government] against attack. If they couldn't defend it, Chavez and his 
government would move to a region where they had the support of the troops. 
The generals knew of these plans so they cut off all communication — no 
radio, no television, no telephone, no cellular.

One interesting story is that the couriers who ride motorcycles got 
organised after the coup to run messages between the palace and the poor 
neighbourhoods. They became quite politicised and are still active. If they 
hear a rumour that the right is mobilising, they organize en masse on their 
bikes and loudly ride to the palace. They are a fearsome sight.

Anyway, the generals threatened Chavez that if he refused to resign there 
would be a lot of bloodshed. Chavez is very sensitive about loss of life.

Rebick: But what we were told in our media was that troops loyal to 
Chavez were shooting people.

Harnecker: That is not true. The Mayor of the Metropolitana, the 
area around the Palace, is against Chavez. This mayor controls the police 
in that area so when the right organized a demonstration against Chavez, 
these police were protecting the demonstrators. Chavez forces were 
protecting the Palace. These anti-Chavez police attacked people that were 
surrounding the Palace to protect it. Some of them reacted and shot back. 
There were also snipers, which you may have heard about. Chavez says these 
snipers were infiltrators and were shooting rightwing demonstrators to turn 
the people against Chavez.

The courts have now investigated all this and found that most of the 
bullets came from the anti-Chavez forces.

Rebick: So did Chavez resign or not?

Harnecker: Well, the generals told Chavez to resign or there would 
be a civil war. Chavez discussed this with his staff and decided to resign 
with the idea of returning to power as soon as possible. However, he would 
only resign under certain conditions: that he be able to communicate with 
the people and protect the life of all people, and that he and his staff be 
able to go wherever they chose.

At first the generals accepted his conditions, so he told his minister of 
defense, General Ricsn, that he could announce his resignation. Ricsn 
appeared on TV saying that Chavez had resigned. However, the generals 
changed their minds and did not accept the conditions so Chavez did not 
resign, but all the media reported that he had.

It was a terrible moment for the people. There was a climate of depression. 
It was a terrible night. Chavez himself was sent to prison. He told me he 
was not killed because some of the soldiers in the prisons he was taken to 
protected him.

Rebick: So how did the people know he had not resigned?

Harnecker: During his imprisonment, army lawyers came to see him to 
make sure he was being treated fairly. When he was answering the questions 
he explained that he had not resigned. This was in the report handed over 
to the Chief Justice. During a TV interview, the Chief Justice revealed 
that Chavez had not resigned after all. This was one day after the coup.

As soon as people heard this, they poured out of the barrios [slums]. More 
than 100,000 people marched from the poor neighbourhoods over to the 
military barracks to call on the soldiers to join them. The poor people and 
the soldiers, more than 200,000 strong, marched to the Miraflores Palace 
demanding Chavez return to the government. Not a shot was fired. Finally, 
Chavez forces inside the army recovered some strategic areas and began to 
control the situation. They sent a helicopter to get Chavez and bring him 
back to the Palace and the coup was over.

Rebick: This seems a little too simple. Why didn't the right fight 
back against the demonstrators?

Harnecker: Because the army was then with Chavez, the generals that 
participated in the coup were isolated, and a clear majority of the people 
were Chavistas. Also the opposition began to split when they saw what Pedro 
Carmona, the self-proclaimed new president, was proposing to do. In fact, 
the right was and is divided. The opposition is now divided into three 
groups: the fascists who want a new coup d'etat; the conservatives who want 
to remove Chavez by Constitutional measures without bloodshed; and people 
who were in the opposition but have now decided that Chavez is better than 
his opponents.

Rebick: So were the leaders of the coup prosecuted?

Harnecker: No. Chavez told me that when he was in prison, he thought 
only about how to re-unify the country. For the generals to be judged, the 
High Court has to agree to allow it according to the Constitution. The High 
Court is anti-Chavez and didn't allow the generals to be prosecuted. The 
court said that there was no coup d'etat and that the military only acted 
because there was a vacuum of power. So those involved in the coup are 
still in the army, but they have no responsibility.

The people and some of the army are more radical and want the generals 
prosecuted no matter what the Constitution says. But Chavez understands the 
balance of forces and says they can't have a civil war or the United States 
would step in. Everybody must know that Chavez is the only one that can 
avoid a civil war.

The situation is still precarious. Both Chavez and the people are prepared 
this time for another coup. Most important is that it was the people who 
returned Chavez to power, so they feel very strong and powerful. The people 
feel like they are actors in the political situation and as you know this 
is a very revolutionary situation.

Rebick: So what is happening now? 

Harnecker: Chavez is telling the people to organize in every way 
possible — Bolivarian circles, co-ops, women's groups, popular radio, etc. 
The generals returned to the army, but everyone knows who was involved. 
Chavez is organizing a referendum to reform the Constitution so that they 
can prosecute the generals and appoint new judges.

Rebick: One of the most interesting things about Chavez is that he 
is trying to implement participatory democracy. Did you discuss this with 
him?

Harnecker: Chavez says that representative democracy is a system 
that does not permit the people to make decisions. This liberal democracy, 
he says, permits corruption. He wants to build a participatory democracy. 
In my opinion the new Constitution is the most advanced in the world in 
integrating participatory democracy into government. He has been influenced 
by the participatory budget in Porte Allegre [Brazil] and other experiments 
like that. (Emphasis added)

Rebick: And do you think Chavez is a revolutionary?

Harnecker: Yes I do. He told me he is neither a Marxist nor an anti-
Marxist; neither a Communist nor an anti-Communist. "I am a Bolivarian," he 
explained. Bolivar wanted to create a regional force in Latin America to 
deal with the United States. Chavez wants to create a new ideology specific 
to Latin America and its reality. He thinks Marxism is too European. For 
example, he says, a working class, as Marx described it, does not exist in 
Venezuela.

I asked him if capitalism could be humanised. He answered that capitalism 
is inherently exploitative and cannot be humanised. But he recognizes that 
they are in a capitalist regime. Chavez wants a revolution, but he realizes 
that to achieve that he needs a different relationship of forces. He wants 
to build that new relationship of forces in alliance with others in the 
third world. With such a strong alliance in the future, he believes it will 
be possible to negotiate with the United States.

Chavez told me: "Our process is a transition from a neo-liberal model to a 
humanist, self-government — a more democratic model that would resolve the 
basic needs of the people."

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Note: Marta Harnecker is the director of MEPLA (Memoria Popular 
Latinoamericana). She is Chilean but currently lives in Cuba. Judy Rebick 
is the publisher of http://www.rabble.cawhere this interview first appeared.